After the Affair
Some people absolutely know they would leave if their partner cheated on them. Think “Before He Cheats” by Carrie Underwood, for example. This episode is not for those people. In the first of two episodes about cheating, Jaime talks about the tough decision to stay in a relationship after infidelity. She calls up a listener who is struggling to break down the walls she put up after her husband had an affair. Plus, listener questions about keeping your partner’s infidelity a secret from friends and family and trying to get past the pain to a place of trust again.
FYI: Tell Me What To Do contains mature language and themes that may not be suitable for all listeners.
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[00:37] Jaime Primak Sullivan: Hey, guys, this is Jaime Primak Sullivan, and you’re listening to Tell Me What To Do. Hi everybody, I’m so excited to be back this week for another episode of the Tell Me What To Do podcast. Thank you to everybody who has listened to the episodes thus far. And if you are new, strap yourself in for the shit-show because this is a doozy. Talking about affairs. By the way. If you’ve been with someone less than a year, as far as I’m concerned, it’s cheating, not an affair. But if you live together and you’ve been together more than a year, you could say affair. You could be in that club if you really want to be. Anyway, what’s going on this week? A lot. There is a lot going on this week.
[01:29] Jaime Primak Sullivan: The devastating loss of Chadwick Boseman, brilliant actor, kind humanitarian, died after a private, four-year battle with colon cancer. And the thing is that nobody wants to get their colon checked. I get it. It’s gross and it’s embarrassing. And nobody wants to go for a colonoscopy because who wants to drink that stuff and shit their brains out? No one except for the people who want to lose two pounds. And also, like, it’s scary because you never want to come out of that thing and have them be like you’ve got polyps in your booty. But most of us do actually have polyps in our booty. The good thing to know is that usually the polyps are benign and it’s better to know than not know. So please, if you are listening to this podcast, yes, you, please consider getting your colon checked. Please consider getting a colonoscopy, men and women. What else is going on this week? I went to Jersey, got in trouble for posting a picture of me at the hair salon, even though I explained in detail that we had the salon open early so that Courtney and I could go get our hair blown out alone together.
[03:22] Jaime Primak Sullivan: We wore masks the whole time, except for the two seconds we took a selfie, which, by the way, we slept in bed together, so I’m pretty sure if she has herpes, I have herpes. I mean, COVID. But I posted it because I finally felt good after four weeks of feeling like shit. And I said to her, how long until somebody says something about me not quarantining properly? And she was like, no way. You explained everything. I’m like, it’s the Internet. How long? She was like, I don’t think anyone will say anything to you. Naive young one is. Didn’t take long before the, “I know you’re going to call me Karen for writing this but, and we’re not allowed to say anything against Jaime, but she’s supposed to be quarantining.” Mom, is that you? Get off my Instagram. But the people were actually correct. I was not quarantining properly. And Governor Murphy would be very disappointed in me, even though I followed, like, all the — I did it the best I could possibly do it. Going along, you know, empty salon, the whole thing, technically. Now I just put it on a fucking podcast, so I’m sure someone’s gonna send this to Governor Murphy and he’s going to text me, be like, “yo, homie, don’t fucking come back to Jersey.” Guess what? I’m coming back anyway, bro. You can’t stop me. New York is now at like day three or four or something of less than one percent of new infections. It’s unbelievable. And I see your thirst trap photo, Andrew Cuomo. I see it. Under your car. Don’t think we don’t see you thirst-trapping. We get it. You’re hot. All the Cuomo-sexuals out there. Seriously, all kidding aside, I would totally have sex with Andrew Cuomo. No, just kidding. All kidding aside, I totally would. But also, I’m so proud of New York and New Jersey. They got hammered and they really, really put the work in. And so I’m really, truly excited about that.
[05:44] Jaime Primak Sullivan: So this week I asked for your stories about cheating. This is gonna be the first episode of two about cheating. For this episode, we’re hearing from people who have been cheated on but decided to stay with their partners. For those of you who know me, you know I think that’s a great choice. Sexual infidelity means something different to everyone. Some people say that if their partner cheated, they would be out. No ifs, ands or buts. Some people say they don’t know what they would do if put in that situation. I say I would not leave Michael for cheating. I just wouldn’t. He knows that doesn’t give him a license to cheat. But he knows I wouldn’t leave. And I thought it could be cool to bring somebody on to talk this through a little more, somebody who’s been through it recently, because I know that forgiveness and choosing to stay and fight for your marriage is honestly not the popular opinion. And, you know, I think women that are trying deserve support and honest, open conversation. So let’s get started.
[07:07] Jaime Primak Sullivan: Hi. How are you?
[07:13] Caller: I am doing good. How are you?
[07:15] Jaime Primak Sullivan: I’m good. We’re not going to use your name. I’m so glad that you called. And I really, first of all, appreciate you listening to the podcasts and supporting the podcast. So can you give me just like the Cliff Notes version of what’s going on, how long you’ve been married, if you’re, you know, when how long into the marriage did the affair happen? Sort of how you found out.
[08:00] Caller: We are coming up on our 13 year anniversary. It happened within, I’d say the first three years that we were married. I found out from her sending a message, and then him denying it for quite a few years until after we had our second child. And I just decided, you know, the movie The Vow came out a couple years after. But the way that she said it in the movie — and I can’t remember the actress’s name — when she finds out that her father had cheated on her mother, she had said that she chose to stay with him for everything he has done right, instead of leave him for the one thing he did wrong. And as you hear me emotional for that, it’s because that’s exactly how I felt.
[09:02] Jaime Primak Sullivan: Well, I want to just tell you, I did a Coffee Talk years ago — I was in, I think, Minnesota. I don’t remember where I was, but I know I was in a hotel when I did it. My girlfriend’s husband had had an affair. And I said to her, we have the option now of moving forward and viewing him for the one thing he did wrong, or we can continue to view him for all the things that he does right. I, too, have been married 13 years. So congratulations to you, because it’s been a really fun ride. So you chose to stay with him, obviously. And you guys moved forward. Did you have any more children after the affair?
[09:50] Caller: No. We just have our two.
[09:53] Jaime Primak Sullivan: OK. So you chose to stay. So what would you say now, 10 years later, are the things you’re still grappling with?
[10:06] Caller: The things that we deal with the most is the walls that I have built up. When it all happened, there was postpartum depression followed by depression. So I deal with those a lot. We got into it a month or so ago now. And I remember this sticking out the most was he says, “I don’t even know what it is that you want from me anymore. I try to do this. I try to do that. And either you slapped my hands away or you shy away from me.” And it really made me sit there and think, I don’t even know what it is that I want. I just know I want to be close to you. I do want to be intimate with you, but I’m not allowing it.
[11:00] Jaime Primak Sullivan: First of all, let me say this to you. I love you. The second thing I want to say to you is that resuming sex or any kind of physical intimacy after an affair is truly one of the most intensely emotional fucking human experiences we can have. So I want you to understand that when you say to yourself, why can’t I just get over it? Why can’t I just get past it? If you put resuming sex or physical intimacy after an affair on a sliding scale of marital experiences, life experiences, I would say it’s in the top three hardest things. Top one will be losing a child. After that, I think this is where we are. I think sometimes when we are betrayed, we struggle so much to look ahead, because we cannot take our eyes off what has happened. And because of that, we have actual arousal problems. Our bodies don’t respond the same way. We tense up. We don’t get as wet. We have a hard time orgasming. Or we’re distracted, or in the middle of it, we start thinking, is he thinking about her? Does he wish he was with her? Does he miss her? Did he do this with her? Did he do that with her? Is my body part of the reason why he cheated? Is he not attracted to me? Meanwhile, he’s just like, “pussy!” He’s so fucking happy to be there. And in our mind, you know, we’re like, we could write a fucking dissertation right on like all the thing.
[12:43] Caller: And it’s funny because everything that you just said has been everything that has literally ever gone through my head.
[12:50] Jaime Primak Sullivan: How is sex now? Does it feel mechanical or are you able to connect with him at all? Are you doing it at all?
[12:58] Caller: I think it’s funny because you did a Coffee Talk a couple days ago or last week about sex, and I had made a comment on there that I was avoiding it. And you called me out and told me to stop avoiding it and to go ahead and have sex. And we tried, but it’s usually on my call. You know, he attempts it and I shy away. But when I’m ready for it, you know, I expect it.
[13:30] Jaime Primak Sullivan: OK. Well, that’s like most marriages. Let’s be honest. OK. So there are times where you do initiate it. Well, that’s a good sign. And when it happens. Are you able to enjoy it? Are you able to be in the moment.
[13:48] Caller: Yes.
[13:49] Jaime Primak Sullivan: OK. But this is all good. These are such good signs because — OK, let me tell you what was helpful for me. And by the way, not it was not Michael. It was another very long-term relationship that I was in. What was helpful for me is we stopped focusing on sex and started focusing solely on foreplay. So every situation we went into, we knew sex was not going to happen. And we both made a promise that no matter how much the other one begged for it, pleaded for it, said just the tip, like we promised we would not do it because intimacy comes in so many forms. Here is something that we did that was really helpful: we tried to kiss five times a day. When we woke up, when we were leaving the house, when we returned to the house, before or after dinner and before bed. There’s something called turning inward that is also really helpful when you go to bed, turn inward together, even for a few minutes. You don’t have to touch noses. You don’t gotta play footsie. You don’t gotta make a big deal. Just turn inward. Your body, the molecules in your body, the atoms that physically make you up, you are made of neutrons and protons and they are moving all day. They are electronically charged to his charge. Turning inward puts the electrons and neutrons by your hearts across from each other. And if you think about it, you guys will be producing the same energy currents. And it’s really a beautiful thing to think about, you know. Because I have to sleep on my stomach and I like to sleep facing in the other direction, one of the things that Michael and I do, because he’s not a very intimate man, as you know, and I’ve been very open about, is I will turn inward for a little while. But I can’t sleep like that. I’ll kiss him goodnight and then I will roll over, get on my stomach, turn the other way. But with my left hand, I’ll put it out, and he will hold it with his left hand. And we will just hold hands.
[16:21] Caller: I know you had mentioned the holding hand thing when going to bed, and I had started that with him as well.
[16:29] Jaime Primak Sullivan: It allows you to feel close in a safe way that’s not sexual. Because a lot of times when you’re triggered or you’ve been betrayed or you’re hurt when you feel the sexual advance come on, that’s what triggers you. But if you just want to start introducing intimacy again, holding hands is a very safe way to do that. I think you should focus on the fact that you want to heal and you want this back. And every time you do it, every single time you have sex with your husband, think of sex as a coat of paint. And the wall is your marriage. Every time you have sex with him, you put another thin layer of paint on that wall to protect it. You are rebuilding what was torn down. And each time you make love to him, each time you have sex with him, you’re reinforcing that this is the life you want and you’re building it, you’re getting stronger. Because, listen, our bodies say a lot of things that words cannot say. It signals forgiveness, and that’s a beautiful thing. If you live as a woman who has truly learned to forgive, then you have really lived. You have lived the life that you have been called to live. You have lived the life that God wants for you. I mean, it’s such a gift that you’re giving him. And a lot of times we keep those walls up because we’re so afraid if we let them down, they’ll do it again.
[18:12] Caller: Absolutely.
[18:14] Jaime Primak Sullivan: I know it, girl. I know it. I know it well. I know it well. We feel like if we don’t keep reminding them that they will do it again. But I am telling you, setting yourself free of that and trusting him.
[18:28] Caller: That’s what I’m trying to work on more. Rebuilding all of that.
[18:32] Jaime Primak Sullivan: Do it for yourself, man. But you want to, and how beautiful is that? And he obviously wants to be with his wife.
[18:41] Caller: Yeah.
[18:43] Jaime Primak Sullivan: So I don’t know if I’ve said anything redeeming, but I just want you to know you are absolutely not alone and you are light years ahead of where you think you are. You are a woman in love with her husband who has kept her family together, who is working on forgiveness, who is still having good sex despite all of this, and wants to continue to be married. You are light years ahead of where so many in our situations are.
[19:09] Caller: Thank you. Some days it doesn’t feel like it. Thank you so much.
[23:28] Jaime Primak Sullivan: This email is from Anonymous, and she explains that she’s been married to her husband for 23 years. Eight months ago, he confessed that he’s been having an affair with a coworker for a little over a year. They are going to counseling and are committed to working through the whole thing together, but she is keeping the secret from her family and friends. She’s worried that she would feel judged for staying with him. And she wants to know why are people so quick to judge infidelity? Why are friends and family so quick to tell you to get a divorce and never to trust him again? And where is the humanity in having compassion for the betrayed and the betrayer’s relationship? People in general tend to be more open and comfortable seeing people end their relationship than work it out because most people are afraid of hard work, let’s be fucking honest. We are lazy. We were given healthy bodies, strong bodies, healthy minds, strong minds by our creator, and we are the laziest fucking species on the planet.
[24:29] Jaime Primak Sullivan: When a beaver has to build a dam, you know what the beaver does? Builds the dam. He doesn’t mope. He doesn’t scroll social media. He doesn’t fuckin go wallow somewhere. He doesn’t go to a bar and get hammered. He doesn’t avoid his problems. No. He starts collecting sticks and shit and builds a dam. Be like the beaver when it comes to your marriage. Put the work in. Now let’s talk about why people are so quick to judge infidelity. You know why? First of all, church. Now, you know I love me some church, you know I love me some God. But we are dictated by what the Lord says, and infidelity is a sin. It’s the same Lord that told us infidelity was a sin, told us that no one sin is greater than the next. So you shrimp-eating bottom-feeders can judge infidelity all you want while you’re at the buffet, putting six more shrimp on the barbie. Let me remind you, the same lord that condemned infidelity also said we should not eat bottom feeders. Also said we should sacrifice animals when we want to show gratitude. How would you all feel if I just sliced the dog open and left him on the front lawn to show my appreciation for the fact that I haven’t got COVID? Oh, you’d all be mad, right?
[25:48] Jaime Primak Sullivan: Unbelievable. “You talk about the Lord and you curse so much.” Shut the fuck up. It’s church. But what would God say? I don’t know. I’ll ask him when I get there. By the way, judgment is a sin, too. Same Lord that condemned infidelity, condemned judgment. You can’t do both, folks. Can’t do both. Infidelity seems like the greatest infraction you can make in a marriage. It’s not. Would you rather find out your husband got a blow job or have your husband punch you in the face? Oh, blow job’s not looking so bad right now, is it? It’s not the worst infraction. Would you rather find out your husband got a blow job or find out he behind your back spent all your kid’s college money? I remember — I swear this is not political. Some of you are gonna go, oh, she’s playing favorites. No, I’m not. I promise you, I wasn’t even really old enough. I think Bill Clinton ran for president when I was 17. Or maybe that was the first election I could vote in, I don’t know. But I remember him playing the saxophone on Arsenio, whoever. And I remember thinking, that man’s pretty cool. But what you know, what the hell that I know I was on drugs. But I remember people being like, she should leave her husband! The whole world. Why hasn’t she left her husband? Why hasn’t she left her husband? And I was like, Mom, do you think Hillary Clinton should leave her husband? And my mom was like for a blow job? No! And on we went. I think people are quick to judge because it gives them something to judge. They feel validated in their judgment. Ooh, this is really big. It says it right here in writing in the Bible. It’s like the thing. It drives me insane. I broach it on Coffee Talk all the time because it drives me nuts. Monogamy is not natural. It is man-made and religiously enforced. Let me say that again, monogamy is not natural. It is man-made. Notice I said man, not woman. Man-made and religiously enforced.
[28:14] Jaime Primak Sullivan: Our nature, especially men, is to spread our seeds. We were put here to procreate. Period. It’s literally our nature and sex feels amazing, dare I say? And the rush of, you know, making out with someone new, I totally get it. So we work really hard to stay faithful because we made vows and commitments and we understood the reason they write it in the fucking vows is because it is a challenge. Hey, we’re writing this down! We want you to have to say it out loud, because we want you to understand how important it is. We get it. Super important. Also really hard. For some people, monogamy comes easy. Be grateful. Be grateful that you don’t feel the pull to spread your seed with other people, you are one of the lucky ones. I am not. I think about cheating every day. Not because I don’t love my husband, but because it doesn’t come natural to me and it feels fucking oppressive. And everybody wants you to get divorced because that’s what makes them comfortable. They don’t want to see you doing the work. How can you ever trust him again? How can you ever blah, blah, blah? Well, what about the rest of the vows? What about for better for worse, remember that?
[29:36] Jaime Primak Sullivan: And you are smart, Anonymous, you are smart not to tell your friends and family about your husband because they will judge him. They will shame him. They will think differently of him. And they will think differently of you. If you do tell anyone, make sure it is people who will love you and pour into you and pray for you and lift you up and support keeping your marriage and your family together. You are not required to exploit your pain. You are not required to share this decision that you have made to stay and work it out with anyone. I promise you, whatever desired result you’re hoping for, you will not get. Take it from someone who knows. People are shitty and I still have people in my life that bring shit up. First of all, you triggering bitch. Why are you bringing that up? But it’s because it bothers them that we worked it out. And I can’t surround myself with those people. So I set serious boundaries with those people. And by the way, I love you and I’m really glad you decided to stay. And you know what? If later on you decide to go, go. But good for you for trying.
[33:47] Jaime Primak Sullivan: OK, one last question. Let’s get into it. This listener is sort of in a similar situation. Her husband cheated on her, but she doesn’t want to tell anyone because she doesn’t want to seem pathetic for staying and also doesn’t want her husband to be seen in a bad light. They are working through it and she has a better understanding of where it all came from. Her questions are, how does she get past picturing them going to a hotel? What happens when he starts going to work again? How can she trust him? How does she think about the vacations and events that took place during this time without a big black mark? A big black cloud over them? She just wants the feeling to go away. OK, well, the feeling is not going to go away. It’s just not. How do you get past picturing them going to a hotel? Tell him to take you to the hotel. A lot of times what we imagine in our minds is a thousand times worse than what it really was. You probably think it’s like Pretty Woman and he dressed her in some $10,000 gown and walked her through the Beverly Hills Hotel.
[34:51] Jaime Primak Sullivan: I’m guessing that was not the case. Ask him to see it. Look at it online. Spend some time with it alone. Take it in. Click through the pictures of the room. See what it was. So you can deal with what it is. Otherwise, everything’s left in your imagination and our imaginations will always give us the worst-case scenario. How many times do you shut the light in your basement and then book it up the fucking stairs like Freddy Krueger is absolutely right behind you? There’s nobody behind you, but your imagination wants you to think there is. That is what happens when you don’t get your hands on the details of an affair. Some women can say, I don’t want to know shit. You know what? You are a superhero. You might be Robocop. I want to know everything. I want to know the hotel. Which spot did you park in, bitch? Did you walk in on the left or the right? Was the door automatic or did you have to push that shit? Did you hold it open for her? How do you all walk in? Did you fall in line like a military like I need to know exactly what happened. Did you shit in the hotel while she was there? Because I need to know how comfortable y’all were. I want the details because I want to know exactly what I’m healing from. I don’t want to be left with any part of this for my imagination. Absolutely not, because I’ll have you feeding her finger foods, fuckin rubbing her feet, you know, eating her booty when none of that probably happened. None of it. But in my mind, it could be the work. James Bond level affair, when you were probably just that fucking dumb kid from Jerry Maguire is like, did you know the human head weighed eight pounds? And she was all like, oh, my God, you’re so smart.
[36:42] Jaime Primak Sullivan: So get the facts, get the facts. And when he starts to go to work again, how do you trust him? You don’t right away. You don’t. It’s like, you know, if somebody tells you they stopped drinking on a Monday and Friday, they’re going to bartend again, you go, this could be bad or it could be fine. Normalize it. Don’t romanticize it. Don’t make it this fucking fairy tale in your mind. Most affairs are not nearly as beautiful as people think they are. I know I have had them.
[37:20] People think affairs are like fairy tales where you’re just on perfect dates and every — no, your stomach hurts, you’re lying. No one feels good about it. But you can’t stay away because there’s parts of you that are empty and they’re filling the empty parts. And the sex feels different in. Someone’s initiating it when the other person doesn’t. Well, maybe you’ll get on top and feel fancy. And at the end of the day, you leave and you try to hold on to that high, but then you feel gross and you go home to your significant other and you look them in the face and you know that that is who you are. And there’s no fairy tale. And you lay awake at night going, why can’t I stop? I love this person and I want to be with them. What is so broken about me that I can’t find contentment or happiness in anything? God has bestowed so many blessings on me and I’m so fucking lucky. But here I am in a shitty hotel with someone who marginally fills in the cracks. But he laughs at my jokes and tells me I have a nice haircut. And, you know, by the way, when you have affairs, the people in the affair say the dumbest shit. Did you drink enough water today? How did you sleep? Like, shut the fuck up. We say the dumbest shit when we are in affairs. You want to know why the man is having an affair? Because she says things like oh my God, your haircut looks so cute. Are you drinking water? Make sure you eat, babe. The dumb shit that we used to do when we first got together. All of that busy work. The busy work that as wives we either stop doing because we get lazy or we stop doing because we don’t think we should have to anymore or whatever. But you remember those sweet nothings we used to whisper?
[39:01] Jaime Primak Sullivan: Someone else will whisper them. It’s busy work. It’s the paper pushing of marriage. Oh, so it’s my fault he had an affair. No, but yes, but no. But yes, men have sex because they want to, they have affairs because they need to. No man gets an affair for a fucking year because he doesn’t need it. It is sustaining him in some way. It is nourishment for him in some way. And I’m not saying that we are not providing enough, but we have most likely stopped doing the busy work. And that is just the fact. And both of us, not just the women, the men, too. Every single day I asked Michael how his day was. Every single day. And I would say once a week he comes out to ask how my day was. Michael doesn’t do a lot of the busy work in this marriage. And if I had an affair, and Michael found out, and someone said to him, are you surprised? He would say no for a million reasons. No, I’m not. And you know what? I’m OK with that, guy’s. I’m OK with it.
[40:19] Jaime Primak Sullivan: The feeling won’t go away. You’re gonna feel bad until you don’t want to feel bad anymore. That’s just a fact. Being cheated on makes you a valid victim, a valid victim. You are allowed to be a victim and have a victim mentality and be hurt and be sad and be angry for as long as you want because it is valid. And sometimes, ladies, we fought. We fall into that shit, don’t we? Like this victimization feels good, him trying to make it up to me, him feeling bad, him moping him, whatever. Half the time they’re also reeling from the fact that they have to give up their drug. It’s not just the problem at home. It’s the fact that they’ve hurt someone else, too. And not only are they not getting intimacy or affection at home, they’re being punished. They are not getting the affection and intimacy from the person doing the busy work. The side chick who hopefully we’re going to hear from the next episode of Tell Me What To Do. The sidepiece, the other woman. The understudy. And I speak about that humbly because I was those things. And we convince ourselves: so romantic! He chose me! No, he didn’t. That’s why he still lives with his wife. But he’s so happy with me! Of course he is, because he’s not raising children, paying bills or emptying the dishwasher. And she stopped doing the busywork. She’s not telling him how great his new haircut looks. And ask you if you drink enough water. Fucking dumbest question. Did you eat? Are you eating enough? Shut up.
[42:07] Jaime Primak Sullivan: I wish I could go back and tell Cheating Jaime, just be a ho. Stop with all the facade. Just say I want to fuck you. I know you’re married, I don’t care. Well, actually, the man I had an affair with wasn’t legally married, but it doesn’t matter because it was a common-law marriage. And we will get into that next week. Anyway, I just want the women to know who are working on keeping it together, you got this. But it is work. You gotta date again. You gotta fall in love again, you gotta do the busy work in marriage, the paper pushing, you’ve gotta turn inward. You’ve got to decide when you’re ready to stop punishing him, to really stop punishing him and give him a soft place to land. It doesn’t mean the pain didn’t happen. It doesn’t mean the affair didn’t happen. It just means that you’re choosing to stay and work on your marriage. If you choose to leave, more power to you. I want to hear about all the next dates you have and all the fun stuff you’re doing. I support that, too. But for those of you that are trying to stay, turn inward. I’m telling you, metaphorically and physically, turn inward. It makes a huge difference. All right. That’s our show. I love you guys. I’m rooting for you. I truly am. Stay safe. Wash your hands. Listen to Bruce Springsteen. I’ll be with you guys next week. Make sure you check out next week’s episode about the other woman and how easy it is to become one.
[43:57] Jaime Primak Sullivan: Tell Me What To Do is a production of Lemonada Media. The show is produced by Kryssy Pease, and associate produced by Claire Jones. It’s edited by Ivan Kuraev. Music is by Dan Molad. Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jaime Primak Sullivan are executive producers. Rate and review us, and follow us @LemonadaMedia on all your favorite social platforms. Of course, you can follow me at Jaime Primak Sullivan on Facebook or at Jaime P. Sullivan on Instagram. If you have any questions for me that you want me to answer on the show, give me a call at 833-453-6662.